Jon
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Post by Jon on Aug 14, 2013 23:31:45 GMT -5
He trains exactly like Lukas used to when Lukas was winning a lot.
We get it Wiz - You like the guy! Many don't. For me, he ruins more horses than Coach ever did. And I agree Coach ruined many.
Would he have the high win % if he was on the East Coast? No - I don't think so. There have been so many 5-6 horse fields where he has multiple runners.
I don't really care for any of the Big Corporate type trainers. They are not hands on with ALL of their horses. If I have a trainer, I want HIM to train my horse, not assistants. I want him to have his hands on my horse, not get faxes and phone calls.
The mysterious illnesses and viruses? Is that just PR for the horse went bad?
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Post by mrdelmarwasmybitch on Aug 15, 2013 2:04:11 GMT -5
he might have a higher percentage if he were back there. I will copy and paste something I just posted on another thread. for all the bad mouthing I hear about him or oneil winning all of their wins in 5 or six horse fields, take a look at this.
600k grade 1 with six horses huh? looks like all that extra money they have to spend on their graded races isn't attracting anymore horses then the cheaper purses they have at del mar now does it?
saratogas biggest races and purses this meet.
coaching club American oaks- 300k- five horses Diana- 600k- five horses prioress- 300k - six horses whitney- 750k - eight horses!!! whoopee!! Vanderbilt- 400k - 5 horses fourstardave (grade 2)- 500k - seven horses Alabama - 600k - six horses scheduled sword dancer - 600k - 13 horses scheduled on turf, but who knows?
so basically the track that has so much quality and quantity is giving away 2 or 3 times the amoint in grade 1 stakes competition purses to draw smaller fields then del mar is getting for their stakes races.
now that's quality racing!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2013 7:58:47 GMT -5
You're looking at the top end of the cards, not the bread and butter races that keep tracks going. Even so, you won't see 13 horses entered in a Grade 1 turf race very often, and they can run all 13!
Look at Saturday's card - there are 123 entered in the 12 races with an additional 12 AEs/MTOs, with no bribes paid to the trainers.
Elsewhere? 96 entered in 10 races with 2 AEs.
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Post by mrdelmarwasmybitch on Aug 15, 2013 13:58:40 GMT -5
123/12= 10 per race 96/ 10= 9.6 per race
big difference? I don't think so. so now an incentive program is bribery? does that mean that the 15k a week that Saratoga is giving out to the fans to bet on a horse constitue them bribing the fans to attend the races? and the high end is what everyone is always talking about, isn't it. complaining about how the grade 1's and grade 2's don't have high enough purses in ca.? del mars msw are running for damn near as much as saratogas also, and a lot more then other tracks around the country. there really isn't that big of a difference, and what difference there is is due to the slot money. once again something del mar can do nothing about.
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afleettreet
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Post by afleettreet on Aug 15, 2013 14:32:42 GMT -5
I got your back WIz! LOL!
I know the Bafferts (Bob & Jill) and Bob is WAY more hands on than many think...YES he ships alot of horses with an assistant trainer (MANY trainers with huge barns do) but he usually does so in order to be home at the barn with his entire strong...He IS hands on with his horses and cares for them VERY much...People like to speculate with only media reports but I think we cal all agree that whether it is politics, world news or horse racing the media spins EVERYTHING out of control because they LIKE getting people in a frenzy over whatever it is. I have stated before about the "mysterious illnesses, etc" that 3 out of the 7 horses in this mystery had congentical defects (alot more common in race horses than many even realize) which caused heart issues and cardiac arrest...many will remember Go Between and he suffered a fatal heart attack yet they couldn't conculde WHY until they found out he had a defect in his heart which likely prompted it in the horse...interestingly enough, there was a 26 year old guy who we all work with that was a single dad of 3 and two months ago he dropped dead of a heart attack due to an unknown or undiagnosed heart defect which put too much strain on his heart...no one knew about it until it was too late. Such is the same with MANY horses...I would be willing to go out on a limb and say LOTS of barns have this kind of thing happen but when they aren't training large successful strings that equine death isn't even a blip on the radar...when it happens to trainers like Bob, Todd PLetcher, Lukas or anyoen else that is high profile then surely it is defintiely going to get more exposure from media outlets...especially the negative kind because just like ambulance chasers people cannot look away and have to be thrust knee deep into it with specuilations and all kinds of conspiracy theories. Did any know that Bob Baffert was dead set against bringing Paynter back to racing? Did anyone know that Midnight Lucky who has bone bruises was sent to the farm actually a couple weeks before this story even broke? Did anyone know that Bib IS actually hands on? Or that he has a couple assistants but generally it is he and his grooms in the barn and he oversees all his horses and in fact is actually VERY hands on with them? In fact, his assistants are usually in the office going through records and race condition books to help map out a plan for the horsesin his barn. Bob is out in the barn and despite a crisp white shirt and sunglasses he wears jeans and boots like every other trainer out there. He is NOT training like Lukas used to these days..,maybe before but not these days...Lukas ruined more horses in his day (believe me I have MANY of inside scoops from friends who worked directly with him) than most trainers combined...there is a reason he was called "The Butcher" long before he was called "The Coach". Bob texts/calls his clients mutliple times a day when there are updates to give and always gets in touch as soon as he has any news favorable or unfavorable. He is ALOT nicer and more decent guy than ANYONE here realizes and until everyone here has walked a mile in his mocassins (or even taken a spin around his barn) then truthfully how much room does ANYONE have to specualte about anything until they have seen it with their own eyes and NOT from a media report/spin? How much hell did Todd pLetcher get for Life At Ten...NONE...JOhnny V took the fall as did the track vet Veitch) but Todd never got a fine or anything and yet here are scores of trainers liek Carla Gaines for example acceptiong their penalties because ultimately THEY are in charge of that horse and his or her well being...Todd deflected and denied any wrong doing in any way yet Johnny V gets fines $10k? Smells "ratty" to me. Todd never caught hell for Super Saver yet he was forced into retirement after the Travers or Haskell (I can't remember which) with SEVERE bone bruising on all FOUR LEGS...did he catch hell? Nope...he ran a sore and bruised horse but get a hall pass to do it and Bob send Midnight Lucky to the farm because she was workignok but he felt she was just not right so he ordered a scan and found bruising the likes of which he didnt' want his filly to hurt so he sent her to be refreshed and healed for MANY months...he could have brought her back sooner but he adores her (as do most in the barn because she is a complete doll) and wants to see the best in her. As for him having multiple runner sin a race....Well what do ya know...Todd Pletcher does the EXACT same thing in almost every graded race nearby. Bob places multiple entries sometimes because the racing offices practically beg him and many others such as Doug O'Neill, John SAdler and others to help fill races. Just wish some would actually give the guy credit and the benefit of the doubt instead of letting speculation about him, his wife, his horses or whatever else itches them today about him run wild. Without trainers like Bob we wouldn't have champions like Silverbulletday, Midnight Lute, Looking At Lucky, Silver Charm, Point Given, Indian Blessing and SO many others....just seems it is WAY more fun to poke at the negative than even remotely entertain the positive.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Aug 15, 2013 16:32:30 GMT -5
Sorry. Think he's ruined as many as Lukas. He trains for speed. How many older horses does he have or had? (Game On Dude doesn't count because he didn't have him as a 3 yr old.) Lukas seems to have reformed with age. We shall see if Bob does.
As to the owners - Wiz - C'mon man, you talk as if they were total s! Am sure that's not true. Am sure they had brains and didn't just let Lukas make all the decisions without input.
I also disagree about the virus BS! Is that a cover? It was last year and apparently still is around this year (Socialbug). It's hard to believe if he's so hands on that w/e is causing this still hasn't been found. And - he can't be hands on if he's not with the horse. Also, where's the info that was promised about his own research into the 7 deaths? Sorry - It appears the CHRB covered his ass on that and nothing else has been forthcoming. It's a done deal - BUT - it's not.
If you just visit the barn occasionally Treet, I'm sure everyting you see is positive. Guess I'm not sure how close friends you are!
No one said he's not nice. I'm sure he's very polite to guests. That's not relevant.
Carla's suspension is bogus. That's the CHRB trying to appear like they are doing something. How many suspensions have O'Neill and Baffert had? That's the CHRB trying to fill races by sucking up to the big trainers. If Carla had 7 horses die in less than a year, all hell would have broken loose. She probably would have been banned for life.
I also disagree about the Champions you mention, Any experienced trainer would have done well with that kind of horseflesh. Looking at Lucky might have been a TC winner!
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Post by mrdelmarwasmybitch on Aug 15, 2013 17:03:02 GMT -5
how many older horses does anyone have who are any good? if they are any good, they all get retired for breeding. that's certainly not bafferts fault. im sure he would rather have everyone of them remain in his barn rather the be retired.
gene klein knew nothing about racing until he hooked up with lukas. if you think these big time owners know anymore about the sport then your avg. joe, you are mistaken for the most part. I know they are on a smaller scale, but do you think bobby flay knows anything about what is going on? jim rome? the basketball coach from Louisville? I know joe torre knows a little because he has been a track junkie for at least 40 years. I know a few ex major leaguers who used to go with him and pinnella all the time. just because you have money doesn't mean you are an expert on everything or anything for that matter, especially things you did not make your money in.
how hands on do you want him? what would be good enough? if he only had one horse and slept in the barn with him like the guy in seabiscuit? good luck finding a good successful trainer who is going to limit himself like that. while your at it, next time you find a mechanic, electrician, or plumber who only does repairs for you, let me know. carlas suspension has nothing to do with baffert. he is not in charge of her investigation. if he does get preferential treatment from them, that's something they need to be investigated for, not him. if someone came up to you tomorrow and offered you free admission for life to Saratoga because they liked you, would you turn it down ?
and btw, how successful was game on dude before he got to bafferts barn? what about thirty slews? how do you know lucky wouldn't have been a flop elsewhere? or real quiet would have been in a claiming race after being a bargain purchase?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2013 17:18:00 GMT -5
Don't know about the others, but with Bobby Flay he does know something about horses - he's been going to the track since he was about 5 years old. In fact, he was the keynote speaker at the Hall of Fame induction two years ago. He's a conceited and obnoxious SOB, but he knows horses.
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Post by mrdelmarwasmybitch on Aug 15, 2013 18:26:06 GMT -5
ok maybe he does. but that is rare in the Hollywood or sport circles
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afleettreet
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Post by afleettreet on Aug 15, 2013 18:47:50 GMT -5
Jon, I am pretty good friends with Jill whch has rolled over to knowing Bob pretty well and I can say with certainty that I could walk in unanounced every time I was in town and there would be no rush to cover up anything. Bob does care and NOTHING you or anyone who is questioning that will change that...unless you or anyone else has personally visited, knows, or has the experience of knowing what goes on in his barn behind the scenes then it is "off base" for you or anyone to speculate further without proof. I know them...that's all I have ever said and I have one of my very best friends who worked along side MANY trainers in the 80's and since and she has told me HORROR stories abotu Wayne Lukas, she doesn't like Baffert just as much as you seemingly don't but she admits he is NOTHING like Lukas and he has steered clear of that training regime and blazed his own paths with his own methods...he does work them fast but then again perhaps it is that fast super highway in SoCal at Santa ANita where times are WAY faster than most tracks...I will take the word of my dear friend who KNOWS him and SAW what he did during those times over anyone who reads media...the proof is in the pudding IMHO. I TOTALLY respect your opinion and fully appreciate you lending your opinions and perspective in all this but unless you actually have witnessed what goes on in Lukas, Baffert, O'Neill, Pletcher's barn then surely you cannot say that Bob is the one that came out worse that his old bass...where is all the love for PLetcher...he was one of Coach's understudies too and after the whole Life at Ten thing and the feigned ignorance or lack of knowledge that SUper Saver was a sore horse it is NOT excusable by any stretch of the imagination on any level.
I TOTALLY agree with you about Carla...while she isnt' a friend per se I have met her and visited her barn a few times and she is a VERY wonderful lady and an excellent horsewoman...it seems VERY MUCH a transgression against her but the CHRB took the chump way out...JUSTICE FOR CARLA...and while I have met her and been to her barn I am not friends with her or anything...I go to Craig Dollase's barn whenever I am in town and one of his assistant trainers is a good friend who has taken me to just abotu EVERY barn on the backside which was a true joy, honor and privilege. I get snippets of "backside Info" which I cannot or will not repeat as it is not in my nature to be a gossip but I have heard things right out of the mouths of those VERY MUCH in the know and I take their word on what is "going on" over whatever media outlet THHINKS it knows more than everyone else...the reporters are nothing mroe than airchair jockeys/trainers/enforcers/whistleblowers that write what they need to write in order to sell their story.
Again please know I am NOT tryingto argue or create any drama...I appreciate and respect your responses in all this as it is nice to see what others are thinking and saying because I always take it at face value and never presume or judge what others say but knowing some of the people we are talking about and calling them friends is ALOT different than being labeled a casual race fan who thinks she knows everything...I dont' proclaim to at all just lending a different view for all to see.
As for Lukas...don't you also agree then (in regards to what you said about Bob and his champions) that WInning Colors, Landaluce, and so many others would have been just as good with ANY other trainier as well? Landaluce was a damn shame (as were the hundreds of others)....Bob may have learned that way but he doesn't train that way...regulations and everything that has evolved have made that almost impossible these days. Bob does NOT run sore horses, I promise you that...if anything he is hyper cautious and sends them to the farm if anything remotely curiosu creeps in...he is a firm believer in recuperation time for all the horses and won't hesitate to send a horse for a vacation or rest of he feels anything is amiss.
On a lighter note...HAPPY BIRTHDAY JILL!
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afleettreet
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Post by afleettreet on Aug 15, 2013 18:51:21 GMT -5
And you ABSOLUTELY have to count Game On Dude who yes was transferred to his barn as a 3yo but BOB has kept him happy, sound and winning for the last 3 years...not his trainer before...maybe that helped his foundation but it has nothing to do with the last 3 years of races for him. I am sure ANY trainer wishes he has a "Dude" in his barn...and incidentally Dude is one of the most mellow and sweet horses you will ever meet...he wants to make you proud of him and so he works hard to get rewards. He is a VERY honst horse with a heart of gold.
Midnight Lucky, Executiveprivilege, and FiftyShadesofHay are also very sweet...EP and 50Shades are best buddies.
Coil (my beloved) on the other hand was as feisty as the day is long...bit a hole in one of my favorite shirts simply because he wanted to hold the fabric between his teeth and not let got...wasn't mean at all but defintiely a stubborn bugger! LOVED him!
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Post by Evelyn on Aug 15, 2013 19:34:34 GMT -5
Treet - It's nice you have a friendship with the Bafferts. Honestly, I'm angry about the 7 deaths and the obvious cover-up. That's just wrong. Maybe the next time you visit you can ask if they found out anything from their own research - also what is the cause of the "illnesses"? I don't think it's off base at all to ask questions or speculate because of the stats. It somes with wanting to be in the spotlight (and the Bafferts do!).
Aside from GOD, he really isn't known for older horses. Do you know if he gets a % when the 3 yr olds are so quickly retired to stud? Why weren't other 3 yr olds "rested" and brought back?
FTR, Bode also was injured and retired training at Del Mar. Do you think Lucky will come back? I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't. Why the lag between sending her to the farm and announcing her "bruised foot"? Stuff like that makes me think it's the old PR machine at work. Letting the controversy about the deaths lie dormant is not good PR. No on has or will forget. It will always be a cloud until there are answers. As to heart problems, where was that documented? Not by the CHRB.
Using Landaluce is a bad example. Her sire had Colitis X and almost died - she got it and wasn't as lucky. Medicine has come a long way. Perhaps today she would have survived. But trying to pin that on Lukas isn't fair. Supposedly she died with her head in his lap. Paynter also had colitis, although not the salmonella infection.
Wiz - I'll throw it back at you., How do you know Bode or both Luckys wouldn't be racing at 4 or at least through a conplete 3 yur old season if they had been training - with - say Lo Presti? Or Shug? I also believe you are wrong about horse owners. These successful, wealthy owners are not stupid.
It's personal opinions. If Treet or Wiz had a promising 2 yr old, they might want Baffert as their trainer. If I had one, I would not.
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Post by Evelyn on Aug 15, 2013 19:53:17 GMT -5
OK - We know they have a "personal war" but I think thisa raises some valid questions. I do not think it's off base.
Paulick Report 8/14
Questions Still Unanswered in Baffert Sudden Deaths by Ray Paulick
Sometimes I’m a little slow at figuring things out.
It’s been just over four months since racing writers at several publications got ahold of California Horse Racing Board necropsy reports detailing the sudden, unexplained deaths of seven racehorses from the stable of Hall of Fame trainer Bob Baffert over a 16-month period from Nov. 4, 2011 through March 14, 2013.
The horses died from non-musculoskeletal incidents during or immediately after racing or training. The number was extraordinary: during the approximate time frame of the seven fatalities, Baffert accounted for 2.5% of all starts in California but 19.4% of the sudden deaths.
The story generated a wave of bad publicity that led the normally approachable Baffert to issue a statement through Englander Knabe & Allen, a Los Angeles public relations firm that specializes in crisis management communications.
“I am working with everyone,” Baffert’s statement read, “including the California Horse Racing Board (CHRB), my veterinarians and staff at the tracks to find causes for the unexplained deaths. California Horse Racing Board’s Bo Derek and the state’s equine medical director, Dr. Rick Arthur, have made it clear that nothing I have done has caused any horse I have trained to suffer equine sudden death syndrome. My professional focus will continue to be to provide the best care for my horses, with constant concern for their well-being.”
Two months later, the California Horse Racing Board distributed an advisory, saying that it is “continuing its ongoing review of sudden death in racehorses. Given that one barn at Hollywood Park housed a relatively high number of the sudden deaths that occurred over the last two years, CHRB investigators have taken steps to determine if there was a relationship between the barn and sudden deaths.”
The June 21 advisory said the unnamed trainer – obviously Baffert – and his staff had been “very cooperative” and that pathology and toxicology work indicated there had been no “foul play.” Environmental testing of the barn is being done and the CHRB anticipates the results to be available in September.
Over the next several weeks, especially after arriving in Southern California to attend the Del Mar meeting, I was encouraged by numerous owners, breeders, trainers and other industry professionals to keep asking questions, because things simply didn’t make sense.
I began to wonder why – if the CHRB has an ongoing review or investigation – commissioner Bo Derek, who chairs the Medication and Track Safety Committee meeting, and equine medical director Dr. Rick Arthur would have gone out on a limb and “made it clear” Baffert did nothing that led to the deaths. At least that was the phrase contained in the press release from Baffert’s crisis management team.
Turns out Derek and Arthur said nothing of the kind.
“I am happy to defend what I say but am not responsible for what others say I said, especially someone’s publicist,” Arthur said in an email to the Paulick Report.
Derek declined to comment directly but asked CHRB communications officer Mike Marten to state her position. “Dr. Arthur advised you in his email that he never made such a statement,” Marten wrote. “Commissioner Derek has authorized me to inform you that she never made such a statement, either.”
Marten went on to say Derek assumed comments attributed to her were taken from her report at the April 11 CHRB meeting on the Medication and Track Safety Committee meeting held the previous day.
Transcripts from that meeting quote Derek saying, “To be clear on another point, no trainer or trainers have been mentioned in our discussions of sudden deaths.”
The pathologists who examined the deceased horses certainly did mention Baffert’s unusual number of sudden deaths.
In the necropsy report for Uncle Sam, a Kaleem Shah-owned horse who died Jan. 6, 2012, a notation said it was the third such death from the same owner and trainer in just over two months. Then, 5 1/2 months later, after Mike Pegram’s CJ Russell died following a June 15 race, a pathologist wrote, “Fourth horse to collapse/die for this trainer in less than one year.”
The Paulick Report asked Eric Rose and Juan Garza, the Englander Knabe & Allen publicists who represent Baffert, where the comments attributed to commissioner Derek and equine medical director Arthur came from. They did not respond to emails seeking clarification.
Rose and Garza previously declined to facilitate an interview with Baffert on the sudden deaths, after the Paulick Report submitted a list of written questions to them. The questions were designed to give Baffert an opportunity to explain, among other things, exactly what he meant in his statement when he said “I am working with everyone” to determine the cause of the sudden deaths.
Did Baffert or his owners hire independent experts or companies to investigate on his behalf? If so, when? Did he make changes to his training, feed, barn management personnel, security, surveillance, or medication programs? When did he first turn over veterinary records on the deceased horses to the CHRB? Did racing board investigators conduct any unannounced searches of his barn, vehicles, tack rooms, or employee living quarters after the spike in fatalities?
“It is clear that you are not looking for answers, but rather you are looking to settle a grudge,” Rose responded to the interview request. “Therefore, Bob has no interest in providing answers to your questions – questions that he has answered numerous times.”
For the record, if anything, my relationship with trainer Baffert over the last 20 years probably has been too cozy. There was no grudge or score to settle. I would characterize our relationship as very friendly, at least until late March when I first asked about the horses who had died. He criticized other trainers for stirring up the controversy – calling them “jealous.” It struck me as sad that a trainer who has accomplished so much and promoted the sport so willingly was so quick to put the blame on other horsemen for something that happened under his watch.
And I’m quite certain Rose was not telling the truth about Baffert having answered those same questions numerous times before. As I learned from Bo Derek and Rick Arthur, publicists sometimes have a way of just making stuff up.
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Post by mrdelmarwasmybitch on Aug 15, 2013 19:57:46 GMT -5
ok. I quit. im never talking about baffert, lukas, del mar, or Saratoga again on here. I don't want to argue with people I consider friends and hopefull the feeling is vice versa. but there is such an east coast bias on here it is sickening. from here on out I will simply share programs and post picks. I cant use logic. it doesn't work.
anyone watch the new episode of breaking bad sunday?
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Post by Evelyn on Aug 15, 2013 20:42:36 GMT -5
Oh WIz - We're not arguing. We just have differing opinions. We also have different definitions of logic I think! It's all good! And what's REALLY good, is that none of it got personal. For example - I didn't call you a "big boob" (reference other thread!)
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cait
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Post by cait on Aug 15, 2013 20:53:43 GMT -5
wiz - what's for dinner? also - what's your opinion of jill?
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Post by racinggal on Aug 15, 2013 22:56:28 GMT -5
I like reading all of your opinions. Please keep expressing yours Wiz! Friends can disagree!
I picked one of Baffert's tomorrow at the Spa!
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Post by mrdelmarwasmybitch on Aug 15, 2013 23:40:59 GMT -5
in on a hunger strike due to the treatment of mr. baffert.
don't know anything about jill. not sure if I would even recognize her if I saw her. I try not to let personal issues cloud my judgement of horse racing related topics, such as expecting everyone who claims a horse being expected to remain involved with that horse through its retirement and thereafter.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Aug 16, 2013 0:05:14 GMT -5
Hunger Strikes no fun. Let's have one of these!
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cait
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Post by cait on Aug 16, 2013 12:32:40 GMT -5
ya know i was blasted as a hater on zvg because i said she wasn't the greatest horse to ever race - sigh - zenyatta was a very good mare - especially on synthetic - for me, it's shameful her connections didn't allow her to have the chance to prove she might be "a great" - unless of course they knew something the public didn't
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