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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 4:33:31 GMT -5
not that im complaining, because im not (unlike many others). but anyone that complains about BOB BAFFERT having double entries in any races out here on the west coast (I can think of a couple in particular) had better look at the entry box in florida. PLETCHER has multiple entries in just about every damn race they run out there. WAY more often then BAFFERT does here. and that track is just as biased towards speed, and has been the whole meet, then santa anita has ever been. like I said, im not complaining. its all part of the game. tracks should be speed biased in my opinion if there is going to be any kind of bias. as handicappers it just means you have to adjust. but what I don't understand is how can the trainers who keep running horses there who are closers still keep their horses? I didn't like top billing today for three reasons. he hadn't beaten any one of substance in his 3 races. he has no speed running over a surface that has been dominated by front runners. and he was so overbet it was ridiculous. now none of those reasons were because I thought he lacked the talent to beat these other horses, and actually after watching him run today I do think he will come out of this race to be the best of this group come derby day. he ran well with what he had to work with. but my question is this. why was he in this race? is SHUG blind? has he not seen the way this track has been playing the whole meet? why run him here when you could run him on the same day over a much fairer track to closers like the fair grounds? he should have never been in this race and unless the owner forced his had (which I doubt), that is the trainers decision. definitely poor placement on his part.
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Post by hesnotmypres on Feb 23, 2014 12:34:19 GMT -5
Wiz:
You still haven't figured it out in here Pletcher is a "King" amongst the masses. No one would dare say a crass word about him except you and I. After all we live for "bashing" him and anything that pertains to NY Racing.
It's like the Elephant in the room, they know he's there , but they don't want to admit it....
Pres
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 18:19:59 GMT -5
im not even bashing him for it. good for him. if he has trhe horses to do it, then go for it. im just saying he doubles up in races way more often then baffert does, but yet that's all some can point out bot west coast racing is how BOB overloads the entry box. you never hear people talking about that when it comes to platcher though.
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Post by shooter29 on Feb 23, 2014 20:33:58 GMT -5
Wiz,
I got no love for either Baffert nor Pletcher as for me, both represent all that is wrong with racing today. Neither are true horsemen. Just businessmen who happen to trade in horseflesh. I give credit when credit is due but am not a bandwagoner.
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Post by hesnotmypres on Feb 23, 2014 20:45:56 GMT -5
Shooter:
Your reply is SPOT ON. It's a business to the both of them. First off its NOT their money they are "pissing" away. Why Owners get caught up with the hype is beyond me.
If your Horse isn't an "A" Teamer the odds of Todd or Bob ever putting a hand on them is 0%.
Give me a trainer that's interested in what's best for your Horse and you, not just a numbers game.
Pres
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Post by godfather on Feb 23, 2014 20:59:19 GMT -5
It's called progress fella's. We don't like it but it really is progress. Let's throw Asmusssen in the mix with Baffert and Pletcher. They no longer are bday to day hands on trainers. Their business has expanded to the point they hire plenty of assistant trainers to handle that. Instead they sit in front of a computer and read the training reports sent to them by their assistants. Then they spend the majority of their time dicussing and mapping out the racing schedules for their horses. Sure they occasionally watch a few of their top horses woek out but I believe in Pletcher and Asmusssens case they are probably the trainer of record for horses they have never laid eyes on. Baffert is a little bit different because at least 95% of his horses are stabled in Southern California where he resides. People poke fun at John Sheriff's. John is a stay at home trainer who likes to lay eye on as many of his horses as possible on a daily basis. John is a dying breed. He is old school. In all fairness how can we fault Baffert, Pletcher or Asmussen for taking advantage of the computer technology that is available to them to expand their business and increase their wealth? After all, what they are doing is the new American Way to advance in business.
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Post by hesnotmypres on Feb 23, 2014 21:05:33 GMT -5
Godfather:
I do agree with you it's the American way to build a successful business. To their credit Baffert,Pletcher and Assmussen have done that well. Great point about Sheriffs he is an old school trainer. The part that confuses me is why these Owners fall for Pletcher-Bafferts BS.
If your Horse has talent no matter who trains him, he/she will win. And in many cases I believe a lesser known trainer will do what's best for your Horse. Thus giving you more opportunities to win. And when their career is over you'll still have a sound and happy Horse.
Pres
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Post by godfather on Feb 23, 2014 21:18:27 GMT -5
In any business venture investors are looking to deal with business men who have a long term record of proven success. Let's face it, Baffert, Pletcher, and Asmussen have been the most successfull trainers for many years. You know as well as anyone else Pres that personal like's and dislike's need to be thrown out when making business decisions. I am sure some of Baffert and Pletchers clients have no wish to socialize with them but are well satisfied with the ROI on their horses Baffert and Pletcher are responsible for. I have a strong dislike for the new bank manager I am dealing with. She has zero personality. She has yet to warm up to the Godfather which considering my charm is really hard to believe. However, the financial institution she works for has done a great job making investments for me. So far I just over look her. Of course we all know she will eventually come around.
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Post by hesnotmypres on Feb 23, 2014 21:40:48 GMT -5
Wiz, Godfather:
As per the Bloodhorse Pletcher has nominated 18 for the Tampa Bay Derby.. And in my opinion the odds of him winning the race are 30/1.
So as I stated earlier today, I'm glad he keeps trying to buy a race, it gives me and other realists VALUE as handicappers. The Horsey with the pink socks or because he ran here or there doesn't mean when they meet a quality field they will win.
Yesterday Todd had 2 in the Fountain of Youth, how did that work out for him?? Yes he did win the Risen Star with a Horse the Godfather liked quite a bit.
So come on ALL you Pletcher lovers bet the crap out of his Horses in these preps, in the long run you'll lose a lot more than you win. How is his record in the KY Derby??
Pres
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 22:42:18 GMT -5
Wiz, Godfather: As per the Bloodhorse Pletcher has nominated 18 for the Tampa Bay Derby.. And in my opinion the odds of him winning the race are 30/1. So as I stated earlier today, I'm glad he keeps trying to buy a race, it gives me and other realists VALUE as handicappers. The Horsey with the pink socks or because he ran here or there doesn't mean when they meet a quality field they will win. Yesterday Todd had 2 in the Fountain of Youth, how did that work out for him?? Yes he did win the Risen Star with a Horse the Godfather liked quite a bit. So come on ALL you Pletcher lovers bet the crap out of his Horses in these preps, in the long run you'll lose a lot more than you win. How is his record in the KY Derby?? Pres The article about Pletcher's nominations from The Bloodhorse was already posted. Two of the 18 he nominated for the Tampa Bay Derby finished 1-2 in the Sam Davis, the prep for the TBD. |
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Post by hesnotmypres on Feb 23, 2014 22:46:18 GMT -5
This discussion is about how Pletcher "stuffs" the ballot box yet no one complains. We have been sticking to the topic and discussing it like Gentleman.
Pres
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 22:52:46 GMT -5
like I said, im not bashing any of then for the way they do it. I just think BOB catches more flak for it then the others.
as far as shirreffs goes, yes he is old school which is fine also, but I am NOT a big fan of his. I have noticed one thing about his horses. they almost ALL have mental problems or soundness problems. I just don't think he is very good at what he does, whether it is old school or not. his horses are always running off, lugging out, hard to ride, or something along those sorts. its like they have to train themselves. yes he has had some good horses over the years, but like pres said, if a horse is good enough, he will probably be good no matter who trains him. I think shireffs di a great job of plotting out a career for zenyatta and keeping her undefeated. that's about it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 23:00:20 GMT -5
This discussion is about how Pletcher "stuffs" the ballot box yet no one complains. We have been sticking to the topic and discussing it like Gentleman. Pres If you're referring to me, my post WAS on topic. If Pletcher has horses that qualify for the Tampa Bay Derby, and if they've already demonstrated that they can compete well (as I said, two of his nominees finished 1-2 in Tampa Bay's Derby prep race) why shouldn't he? Even with all his entries in races, he's still winning at a 30% rate this year - not bad considering he HAS to have losing horses if he has multiple entries. |
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Post by shooter29 on Feb 23, 2014 23:01:41 GMT -5
Shooter: Your reply is SPOT ON. It's a business to the both of them. First off its NOT their money they are "pissing" away. Why Owners get caught up with the hype is beyond me. If your Horse isn't an "A" Teamer the odds of Todd or Bob ever putting a hand on them is 0%. Give me a trainer that's interested in what's best for your Horse and you, not just a numbers game. Pres Very true Pres! All about the bottom line. The owners who continually give them their most expensive charges are just as bad. Seems more important to get that quick return in the investment than to put a horse in the hands of a truly capable trainer like Bill Mott for example who will bring the horse along at it's own pace. |
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Post by shooter29 on Feb 23, 2014 23:11:14 GMT -5
It's called progress fella's. We don't like it but it really is progress. Let's throw Asmusssen in the mix with Baffert and Pletcher. They no longer are bday to day hands on trainers. Their business has expanded to the point they hire plenty of assistant trainers to handle that. Instead they sit in front of a computer and read the training reports sent to them by their assistants. Then they spend the majority of their time dicussing and mapping out the racing schedules for their horses. Sure they occasionally watch a few of their top horses woek out but I believe in Pletcher and Asmusssens case they are probably the trainer of record for horses they have never laid eyes on. Baffert is a little bit different because at least 95% of his horses are stabled in Southern California where he resides. People poke fun at John Sheriff's. John is a stay at home trainer who likes to lay eye on as many of his horses as possible on a daily basis. John is a dying breed. He is old school. In all fairness how can we fault Baffert, Pletcher or Asmussen for taking advantage of the computer technology that is available to them to expand their business and increase their wealth? After all, what they are doing is the new American Way to advance in business. Excellent points and understand I'm not knocking anyone's hustle, just speaking the truth as I see it. And yeah...definitely have to add ASSmussen to the list of Horse Businessmen. I totally get why prominent owners give their horses to these guys. The records speak for themselves. But as Prse rightly pointed out, a good horse will be a good horse no matter who trains him/her. It just bothers me that there is almost no sense of honor or morals in the game nowadays. |
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